For our Season 3 finale, Naga is in conversation with podcaster and content
guru - Jay Acunzo to discuss, what differentiates great creators from all
others, how to find your first 10-50 true fans? Is there a one size fits all
approach to monetization? Reach out to Jay Acunzo and Check out his content
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https://jayacunzo.com/membership Podcast - 3 Clips –
https://jayacunzo.com/3-clips Podcast - Unthinkable –
https://jayacunzo.com/unthinkable-podcast Twitter –
https://twitter.com/jayacunzo Website -
https://jayacunzo.com/ Books: Break the Wheel: Question Best Practices, Hone
Your Intuition, and Do Your Best Work Reach out to Naga – Twitter -
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Transcript [00:00:00] Jay Acunzo: [00:00:00] you hear the phrase creator
economy used quite often. And I think what we're living through is a very
dangerous transition for a group of people who are trying to earn a living and
a comfortable living at that using their creativity. [00:00:15]it's also very
dangerous because with that momentum comes this, misunderstanding that to do
this, you need to be famous that you need to be an influencer. And I think
fame and influence is becoming way too closely tied to the creator economy.
[00:00:31]most importantly, this shifting mindset from essentially building on
rented land like YouTube or Twitter and moving over to a platform you actually
own like your own website and email list. [00:00:43] Naga S: [00:00:43] Hey
Jay. Hello and welcome to the passionate people podcast. And thank you for
taking the time [00:00:48] to be on the show. [00:00:49]Jay Acunzo: [00:00:49]
Thanks for having me. I really appreciate it, [00:00:50]Naga S: [00:00:50]
Jay, you have an extremely unique perspective, given your background in
content marketing, the kind of shows that you've launched and the amazing work
that you do at three clips. [00:01:01]So as, as we start. I would love to just
get like a 30,000 feet view of the content landscape from your lens and how it
looked at the start of 2020 and how COVID has changed it. [00:01:13]Jay
Acunzo: [00:01:13] Yeah. I'd love to answer. I spend very little time
thinking about the trends and what everyone else is doing, because if I did
that, I think I would probably break down. [00:01:22]I'm so focused on trying
to. Serve the audience that I'd like to serve that it's difficult to follow
the trends, but I will say that I think what we're living through, you hear
the phrase creator economy used quite often. And I think what we're living
through is a very dangerous transition for a group of people who are trying to
earn a living and a comfortable living at that using their creativity.
[00:01:46]Because on the one hand you have momentum. Which is helping more and
more people say, well, I have this craft, for me, I like to create shows. I
like to tell stories about the workplace. Somebody else might focus on a
different niche, [00:02:00] but I have this creative craft. It's never been a
better time to go and build your own audience, which by the way means moving
off of social media, using social media, but not stopping there, moving people
to your website and your email list, building an audience. [00:02:14]And
serving that audience more deeply with products and experiences that they pay
for. So it's never been a better time for that, but it's also very dangerous
because with that momentum comes this, misunderstanding that to do this, you
need to be famous that you need to be an influencer. And I think fame and
influence is becoming way too closely tied to the creator economy.
[00:02:39]So I think where I'd like to see this all go. Is to have a middle-
class develop. So middle-class in a, like a classic sense that there's a
sociologist named Dennis Gilbert. He wrote a great book called the American
class structure in an age of growing and an inequality. And Gilbert defines
middle-class as upper and lower middle-class. [00:02:59] So there's two little
segments, but they combined to make up about 45 to 50% of the total
population. And that 45 to 50% is judged based on their ability to have a
comfortable standard of living significant economic security, considerable
work autonomy, and a reliance on their own expertise to sustain themselves.
[00:03:21]So what I'd like to see is a future in the not too distant future,
by the way, where we stop trying to be super famous and have. Massive and
impressive audience reach. And we actually truly embrace the ideas like Kevin
Kelly's 1000 true fans or Seth Godin's smallest viable audience and try and
find a small number of people who react in a big way to what we do and serve
them more deeply. [00:03:49]And how do we get there? I think we need to stop
trying to be social media famous and trying to serve people with our craft. So
my fear. Is that way too many people are [00:04:00] way too excited about more
and more, more bigger, bigger, bigger, get famous in a niche or anything.
General. My hope is that we can get to a place where 45 to 50%. [00:04:08] And
that's, I think that's the bar. If you look at all, creators are 45 are about
half of them able to earn a comfortable standard of living with significant
economic security work autonomy. Using their expertise to sustain themselves.
And I think it's going to take a lot of education to get there better tools.
[00:04:27]And most importantly, this shifting mindset from essentially
building on rented land like YouTube or Twitter and moving over to a platform
you actually own like your own website and email list. [00:04:39]Naga S:
[00:04:39] Got it. Let me double click on some of the concepts that you've
spoken about here. Right? First one is Kevin Kelly's , a hundred true fans or
legions thousand true fans, or what they talk about in terms of how much money
are these folks willing to give you so that you are able to pursue your craft.
[00:04:56]Right? So in order for us to be able to get to these thousand of
these hundred people, you will at least need to reach like a 10,000 folks or
like, you know, 5,000 folks. Right. And they might eventually convert into
those smaller number of people who might end up being, who are potentially be
able to sustain us financially. [00:05:14]So if your suggestion is for folks
not to be too worried about having a broad reach, or I think what you're
really trying to say is that people should not approach like a, have a spray
and pray approach, where they say that I'm trying to get everyone is my
audience. And you're saying that you really need to have a niche.
[00:05:31]But my question is more fundamental in terms of how do you really
build that first initial audience who would be like the top of the funnel for
your paying customers later on? [00:05:41]Jay Acunzo: [00:05:41] Everything
I'm about to say is going to sound incredibly hard to do, because everybody
wants to see the final result, but I assure you, I don't know any other way to
do this other than you get incredibly lucky. [00:05:51]Lightning strikes and
suddenly lots of people know who you are. So I think those stories are mostly
myth here. Here's what I encourage people to [00:06:00] do. Stop thinking
about the funnel and think about your audience as a series of concentric
circles. So kind of like a bullseye in the middle and bigger and bigger
circles moving out from the middle. [00:06:09]When you think of it like a
funnel, I think you do think of it kind of the way you just described it, Naga
where you need to reach 10,000 people to get a hundred or a thousand to. For
example, subscribed to your newsletter. I actually think you need to just put
aside the funnel, right? Stop trying to reach a lot of people first and
convert a few people in the end of it all. [00:06:29]And start thinking about
these concentric circles, where in the middle there's this circle called super
fans. And as you radiate out from super fans, you get closer and closer to
total strangers. What most of us try to do when we market, what we do is we go
to total, strangers may be passive observers of our work, and we try to
basically try to get them to like us quickly. [00:06:52]And that makes no
sense. So whether you think in like human relationship terms or dollars and
cents. It's inefficient and ineffective to try and convince total strangers
that you're worth subscribing to or paying it's a lot easier and a lot more in
line with how humans work to go to five other human beings that, you know, you
can serve more deeply and try to build something that they like. [00:07:14]So
I think most of us are in a position where we have some people in our network,
social network or otherwise like online network or in the real world where we
can reach a very small number of people. I mean, whatever small means to you,
one, five, 15, 5,500, it depends on you and give them something that they love
and react too strongly. [00:07:34]And if you can't do that, Then that's the
problem. The problem isn't I can't reach more people, but I need to, the
problem is you haven't actually built something that people are willing to
refer others. So ostensibly, if you reach, I don't know, let's pick a number,
a hundred people to listen to your podcast episode. [00:07:52]You should be
pretty well situated to grow the show more easily because those hundred people
should be spending [00:08:00] a lot of time with you and telling all their
friends. You know, relevant friends, check out that show. I think we assume we
do that. We assume that we're actually creating something for super fans that
is worth sharing. [00:08:12]And then we say, well, it's not growing. So the
problem must be the marketing. We have to go reach 10,000 people. I don't
think that's true. I think actually, when you think about building a real-
world community, you think about meeting up for coffee or drinks with two or
three people, then two or three more next time than five or six more.
[00:08:30] The next time, then you have an event, then you have a panel. Then
you have a huge conference. Like it really is that slow build approach. It's
the same online, just because you can reach a lot of people doesn't mean that
that's actually an effective way to grow. It actually starts by making
something that one or a few people really, truly do love. [00:08:48]And tell
their friends about, and it's a dangerous assumption to make. If you're not
growing to assume you've actually done that. So the way it's sum this up is
most of the time we don't have a marketing problem, we have a product problem.
We have a service problem. We have a depth problem, not a reach problem.
[00:09:04]Naga S: [00:09:04] Got it. I also think that some of this narrative
is being carried over from like the startup world or like SAAS businesses in
general, that they refer to all of these numbers of like funnels and that
that's how they look at the world. However, the mental model that you
suggested, which is how actual communities really get built. [00:09:23] It's
the way creator should be looking at it. Like, no, it should be like, they're
talking to the first individual 5,000. How many of the people that they can
and then see how they can expand that. That's a great insight that you give
that. So then the next question I have for your Jay is that now you mentioned
that it's not about marketing, it's your product and you've, you've seen a ton
of content. [00:09:46]And there will be some things that set apart great
content from everything else that's out there. In global shows, your, you
spoke about, we don't really need another podcast, which talks to you
[00:10:00] know, famous authors and how they got there. [00:10:01] But what we
need is something. A lot more specific though. Can I just ask you to dive a
little bit deeper into what makes a great product, especially now that our
attention spans are so low and there's so many things that are finding to make
us want to look at [00:10:16]Jay Acunzo: [00:10:16] Sure. I mean, our
attention spans aren't so low because we're bingeing, Netflix shows we're
subscribing to newsletters that write essays. [00:10:23]We're reading books
were having conversations with friends and family. I read somewhere and I wish
I remember who said this. This is not my quote. We don't have we don't have
shorter attention spans. We have shorter interest spans, which means we are
going to tolerate things that are not engaging and not personal for less time.
So table stakes be relevant. Table stakes, be enjoyable. Differentiating is to
feel refreshing that you've done something different and good, not just a
random stunt, not a gimmick that feels hollow to grab attention, but something
delightful that people didn't expect in a welcome way. Differentiating is to
feel personal. [00:11:02] Like you want the reaction not to be, this is a
popular thing, but you want it to be, this is my favorite thing. And favorite
is not number one in the category. It's not different because you pulled a
stunned. Favorite means somebody's personal and preferred pick for a specific
purpose. So when you think about a product, a service content, any experience
today, the goal is to make it feel personal to the other person you're trying
to serve, or the audience we're trying to serve. [00:11:28] In other words,
the best reaction you can get is they say to you, now this is speaking to my
soul. That's what you want. Your brand, the way you position it, the story you
just publish, the way you talk about the world and see the world and lead your
community. This is speaking to my soul. It is my personal preferred pick for
this specific purpose. [00:11:47] It is my favorite. And so, you know, your
favorite restaurant may not be the top rated restaurant. Your favorite shirt
may not win any awards for fashion. My favorite basketball team is the New
York Knicks. If [00:12:00] you know anything about basketball, you know, the
New York Knicks are one of the worst basketball teams. [00:12:04] So just
really think about that objectively. One of the worst things in this set is my
favorite thing. So feeling like someone's favorite has nothing to do with how
big it is or how academically or objectively awesome it is. It has nothing to
do with the things we look at. When we look at our peers, it has everything to
do with, are you resonating deeply with somebody on a personal level?
[00:12:26]So backing all the way up to starting your build a product content,
a podcast, something else. There's really some set problems you're going to
face, which I think we fail to address because we're so focused on the tech
and the distribution and the measurement of it all. But the first challenge
you're going to face is are you saying something that matters? [00:12:46]So if
it's a podcast, for example, have you actually developed a premise for your
show? And a premise is not just the topics you explore. It's not just what you
cover. It's also how you explore them. So it's your topics plus your hook? So
there's plenty of sales podcasts in the world who talked to experts in sales,
but there is only one podcast for salespeople that explore the value of
practice in your sales job. [00:13:13]And that's a show called practice first
from a SAAS company called Lessonly. So that's a good example. Lessonly is
saying something that matters. They observed their sales audience and they're
like, look, you want to be better at sales? Well, I think you need to be
better at practicing your craft. So Lessonly sells training software for
salespeople, and they know that their customers who value practice close
faster, and they're more valuable for their businesses. [00:13:38]Well,
they're also then saying to the world, we need to elevate the role of
practice. So we're not going to just interview a bunch of sales executives on
this show on practice. First, we're going to learn how world-class practices
do that to then try to translate it to our world in sales. So they'll talk to
Olympians, they'll talk to Somalis. [00:13:58]They will talk to coaches.
[00:14:00] And to me that is. That's IP that's intellectual property. That is
defensible because when you say that to the world, like, actually this is
something that matters to us and to the community, someone is saying, man,
that is speaking to my soul. I'm with you, I'm on the journey to understand
practice and how to practice better as a sales individual. [00:14:20]And
someone else is saying, yes, I'm in sales, but I don't believe that practice
is that important. Well, that's fine. This is not a show for you. That's okay.
Also, if you, if you tried our product, you would dislike our product too. So
it's that level of specificity and saying something that truly matters of
combining your topics. [00:14:38] In other words, what you explore with your
hook, that unique angle into the topics, your point of view, your quest, that
you're bringing people on. Those are the things that combined to say something
that matters. And those are the starting points for building in your words, a
great product. [00:14:53]Naga S: [00:14:53] So now we've spoken about the
number of people that you need for your, like a minimum viable audience you've
spoken about. How do you make a great product once content creator has
achieved both of these things? What do you think is the next best way to
achieve? Monetization. And what I mean by monetization is that the audience
typically is expecting to either be entertained or to learn something new or
to be taken on a journey or be disconnected from reality, so to speak because
they just want to relax and unwind when, when they're consuming content apart
from these three broad value teams, what are some of the other Aspects that
creators can keep in mind so that they can move towards monetization in a
quicker and more thoughtful manner. [00:15:43]Jay Acunzo: [00:15:43] I can't
answer that question because it's too general. Because there's a million,
everything at our disposal today, our tools. Right. So like, could you do a
course? Sure. Could you run ads? Sure. Could you sell a book? Absolutely. You
know, could you create a membership group? Absolutely. These are all tools.
[00:15:58]And so [00:16:00] rather than have me give a general answer, I would
encourage people to go and talk to their audience and understand what is.
Still bugging them. What problem is left under addressed or what thing is
under explored that they'd like to understand better? So we have all these
tools at our disposal and I'm kind of struck by today. [00:16:20] We're all
looking for that, answer, that silver bullet, you know, the savior tactic, you
should do this. Well that's general advice and I don't know the variables of
your specific situation. So just ignore what I say and go talk to your
audience. You know, a good example of this is, this podcast called three
clips, which is where podcasts join us and take us inside their best work.
[00:16:41]And we do so by playing three different clips and breaking them down
together. So I talked to the audience of three clips all the time on social
media. I do one-on-one video calls through my newsletter. And one of the
things I've recognized is this audience desperately wants to create really
awesome shows, but there's this disassociation. [00:17:02] They feel between
their heroes and them, whether they admire great podcasts, but they're like,
Oh, I could never do anything that big. Well, it's like, okay. But if you're
like, listen to the show, these people aren't describing anything big or
stunt, like they're describing these tiny choices they made all the time that
combined to making a great show. [00:17:20]So you can put process to that.
Well, what is the process I was, you know, okay, I'll go write some essays
about what I'm learning from the show. I'll send some tweets, I'll send some
newsletter, additions, all about the things I'm learning and thinking about as
a result of this show. And now I'm looking for, you know, am I getting a
strong reaction from the audience? [00:17:38]Okay, the answer is yes. Great.
Well, how do I then go a level deeper with these ideas? Let me take one
specific thing. And in this case, I took the premise because that is such an
important and overlooked thing. How do you develop a premise for your podcast?
That's what prompts subscription. That's what drives the sharing of your show?
[00:17:55] It's what helps you make choices inside your show? The premise
development is [00:18:00] crucial, but most people don't think of the premise.
They think of growth. They think of growing the show. How do I know that?
Because I talked to these people and when I bring up premise development, it's
like their eyes glaze over and they have no idea what I'm talking about.
[00:18:12] Then I explain it, you know, then I explain it, then they get it.
So when I talk about growth, they lean in, when I talk about premise
development, they lean back. So I have to put the two together. So you want to
grow your show. Great. What makes a growable show? Well, it starts with the
premise. So then I developed a course. [00:18:29]To help people grow their
shows by developing a better premise called it Growable shows. So all those
decisions from the content I'm creating, you know, that's away from the show
to pressure test my ideas to the name itself growable shows because I could
have called it premise development. It all comes from me talking to the
audience. [00:18:47] So as a creator today, it can be overwhelming because you
have myriad tools and tons of different products that you could create for
your audience. There's no way you can pick that out. In theory, you have to
just pursue endless curiosity and pursue little threads that your audience
surfaces to you. And for me, the best way to do that is actually not to create
podcast episodes it's to write is to use writing as a way to explore.
[00:19:11]I might learn something through the podcast, but then I'm like,
great. I'm going to write a ton about this stuff. I'll write stuff on Twitter.
I'll write stuff in my blog. I'll write stuff on my newsletter. I'll write and
write and write until I understand these things better. And have process and
have technique I can teach. [00:19:25] And I'm also getting a feedback loop
for my audience to understand if they're, if they're picking up what I'm
putting down. So I know that's a long answer, but I don't think there is a
simple answer. I think it is go talk to your audience, but be process-driven
about it. [00:19:36]Naga S: [00:19:36] Yup. I love the fact that you're,
you're not only engaging with your audience and in one form. [00:19:42] Right?
And, and even as part of the clips, you also have like specific episodes that
are just dedicated to input your conversation with the listeners and the kind
of stuff that you hear back from them. [00:19:52]Jay Acunzo: [00:19:52] That's
another great example of talking to the audience that I sort of discovered by
accident. It's like I do. [00:19:58]A listener mailbag episode, [00:20:00]
once in awhile, where mostly on Twitter, I ask if people have questions about
creating shows and we'll do five to seven questions in an episode that I'll
answer. So we don't have a guest. It's not the usual production. It's just Q
and a, and I'm answering questions I got on Twitter. [00:20:14]And what I
realized is everybody's questions, or a lot of questions tend to focus on
things that they think they need to know. But I want to show them actually,
what you really need to know is over here. And I can't just say that I have to
start with the problems that they think they have and walk them every step of
the way to the problem that I know they have. [00:20:36]Which is something I
learned as a public speaker, because when you give a keynote speech, unlike a
breakout speech or talk, you're giving like a big idea how to think talk. And
so the keynote, you can't just get up there and be like, everybody's doing it
wrong. Think about it this way. Instead you have to say, so we all want to get
over there. [00:20:54]Right. And here's how we're going about it today. Okay.
We're in agreement. Okay. Well, here's the problems with the status quo with
our current approach. And people go, huh? Hadn't thought about it or, Oh my
goodness. Yep. You get me. Those are the problems I deal with all the time.
And then you can say, okay, well consider this different thing here.
[00:21:13] Let me give you a story that shows what it looks like. Let me break
it down into a framework that we can use with some lessons and some examples,
you know, and let's go deeper if you want away from the speech. Let's talk
after subscribe to my newsletter, take a course, et cetera. So this idea of
being a keynote speaker kind of taught me that our jobs as creators is not the
pander to existing market demand. It's actually to look at what people think
they need and actually tell them what they really need. You know, the, the
classic idea of Henry Ford talking about his customers. Like if I asked my
customers what they wanted, they would've said faster horses. [00:21:46]So
actually we're all in the business of understanding the pain, understanding
the problems, understanding what is broken about the status quo and people's
current processes. But then we can't just propose a radically new and
different solution or category. We have to [00:22:00] start with where they're
at and move them every step of the way towards something better. [00:22:03]And
for my money, one of the best ways to do that today is to start a podcast. So
that's why I love it because a podcast is like a journey between the status
quo or your current understanding. And something better in the distance. So it
kind of mirrors a keynote speech stretched out over a much longer period of
time, but either way as a creative person, you are in the business of making
change and helping people do something better or differently. [00:22:26] Not
just saying everybody's asking for this. So I'll write a bunch of stuff that
addresses that you're in the business of change. [00:22:32]Naga S: [00:22:32]
You spoke about how every creator's journey to monetization. Is different. And
you also said that, , that there are different things that they might not know
that they want, but it's up to us to find out what they really need and help
them bridge the gap. [00:22:47]One of the ways to bridge the gap also is to
see what someone else is doing in your blog posts. You've spoken about
extraction. It's spoken about how do you observe and document like. The
underlying framework of a particular episode. I think I wrote about it in
reference to a TV show. [00:23:04]How can somebody apply that in terms of
borrowing, so to speak best practices from other creators so that they're able
to apply it for their content? [00:23:15] Jay Acunzo: [00:23:15] It's a great
question. I rejected the idea early in my life that creativity. And great
creative projects have a format, have a structure, have a repeatable process.
[00:23:25]But if you look at everything from scientific studies about
creativity, to just real-world examples and advice from people, constraints
actually yield better creativity. I think we, we believe the opposite. We
believe we want creative freedom, but I think that's only because we've had
bad constraints or constraints we disagree with or didn't know were there.
[00:23:44] With teammates, employers, ourselves, but putting positive or
proactive constraints on your work actually breeds better creativity. And one
amazing type of constraint to put on your work is the format of whatever it is
you're creating. So for me, those are [00:24:00] shows. So I have a, I have
two podcasts. I've mentioned three clips. [00:24:03]The other one I have is a
show called unthinkable, which three clips has kind of a segmented interview
on thinkable as a narrative style show. So to heavier production, lots of
story and voiceover and music and sound design, and the audience gets one end
to end episode. Every time it feels like one coherent story. [00:24:20]But
what I know is happening underneath an episode, which then makes me better to
create it is I know we have six or seven blocks of content with the same
purpose. A block is for this B block is for that. And they have different
runtimes. And we have to fill those blocks with content. So we're going to go
and research. [00:24:36] We're going to go interview. We're going to craft it
and in editing. And I got that idea from TV because in TV you have both
visible and invisible what they call rundowns. So visible rundown is like a
news program often has that you see the ticker of what subjects they're
covering and when a sit-com or a story style show, anything where you don't
know the format, it's not told to you. [00:25:00] That's an invisible rundown.
And so my favorite storyteller is Anthony Bordain and his show parts unknown
on CNN before, you know, he tragically died and I took a notebook early in my
time, creating unthinkable. And I sat down with that show and I just tried to
document what is it that makes his show so magical? [00:25:18] Like what's the
format, even if him and his production team didn't have it in their heads.
There's something going on in repeatable fashion here. And if I could extract
the rundown. I can modify it and use it for my show. So I'm not trying to
imitate Bordain. I'm just trying to have a flow that feels similar to his.
[00:25:36]So my voice is different, but the structure is the same. And you can
do that with anything you admire take a notebook, see if you can figure out
what your favorite creators are doing underneath their content. What's the
structure of a given story of your favorite newsletter or book. You know, how
do they actually format that video that you love? [00:25:54]And chances are,
you can come up with something that approximates their plan, or maybe they
didn't have a plan, but you have [00:26:00] a structure anyway. So I call that
exercise and extraction and it can really radically transform your creativity.
You know, first of all, it gives you a repeatable process. So you don't burn
out every time. [00:26:11] Like every episode of unthinkable early on for me,
felt like I was just kind of proceeding on gut feel alone and I would burn out
a lot. Well, now you have a repeatable process. I know what I need to get in
my research in my interviews with people in post, I have a plan. The second
thing that happens is the audience gets a better final result because you have
a plan to get them to the end of the thing, you know, in my case, in episode.
[00:26:33]So I have like a structure to it. Not just because it's fun or
sounds right, but because lineup, all these sections, you have one great
coherent experience that people don't want to leave. So it benefits your
production, it benefits your audience sticking around, and it also benefits
the longevity or show because you can look at that rundown and re-invent with
purpose. [00:26:52]Instead of being like, I have all these ideas for new types
of episodes or additions. If my newsletter or my blog, you can say, well, this
is the structure, you know, in my case of an episode, and every time we hit B
block, it seems to fall apart. So let me change it. Or actually, I think we
could try to experiment with a playful type of segment at the end, or maybe
that becomes a mini series or a whole new show after we do it five or six
times inside an existing episode. [00:27:17]So you get to reinvent with
purpose. So I think having structure is transformative, but we fight it too
much as creative people. And I think that's a huge missed opportunity.
[00:27:25]Naga S: [00:27:25] The first time that I really, , had my brush with
structure was when I was studying to get into business school. And I was
reading about , reading comprehension, how do you break down a passage? It
was just a revelation for me to realize that even in my favorite Netflix show,
there is a specific story arc. [00:27:42]The protagonist is going through
certain things and it always ends. With a clincher and that sort of keeps you
coming back for more and more and more. And this, like you said, like let's
structure everywhere, but it's just that we're not really thinking about it or
looking for it or looking for inspiration from those places. [00:27:58]Jay
Acunzo: [00:27:58] Yeah. Like there's, there [00:28:00] are some famous story
structures, you know Joseph Campbell's hero's journey is a big one. There's a
modified version of that that's been used in pop culture and entertainment
from. Dan Harmon, who's the showrunner behind shows like community and Rick
and Morty. He uses something called the story circle. [00:28:15] You can just
pull up Google images and search for hero's journey or Dan Harmon story
circle. And you'll find that it just makes sense, like these visuals explain
story. I mean, even tiny little heuristics, like there's, there's a technique
called the open loop. So here's an example of an open loop. So Naga this
morning I went downstairs to my kitchen and my notebook was sitting on the
counter and I read the first page of my notebook, which had five words that
inspired me. [00:28:43] And I read them every morning. Okay. Nothing happened
in that story like this, literally a story about nothing. I went to the
kitchen, I looked at my notebook. I read five words that inspire me, but the
question on your mind immediately, Is [00:28:55] Naga S: [00:28:55] what are
those five words? [00:28:56] Jay Acunzo: [00:28:56] Exactly. And so you're
like that story is about nothing, but please continue. [00:29:01]And so open
loops are just, you start a sequence of events and you end them later, you
open questions or raise intrigue and you resolve them later. Open loops, even
the word, but is a form of open loops. And that's what I thought. But then
Naga called me. Who's Naga. Why he call you? How did it change your perception
of what you thought the word, but is like a form of a tiny little open loop.
[00:29:25] It's a storytelling device. Open loops can span years, like game of
Thrones who will sit on the throne. That's an open loop that the name itself
opened for the audience. It raised intrigue. Before you even saw the show. If
you just heard the name during the promotion for season one, now there's
already an open loop and that lasted 10 years. [00:29:43]So big and small, you
have this technique called the open loop and we don't know how to wield it as
creators. So either we don't use intrigue or don't create questions. And so
our experiences are flat or we use it in a very. Abusive way. We, you know, we
re we [00:30:00] abused the responsibility inherent and being a communicator.
[00:30:03] And we do things like clickbait headlines, which is like a crude
form of an open loop. And I think if you learn how to tactfully use tension,
that's what creates great stories. And that is where these story structures
come in, because it's like, okay, what details happened before the tension?
Where do I introduce the tension? [00:30:21] Where do I relieve the tension?
And sometimes it's as simple as one, two, three, sometimes it's a little bit
more nuanced and like a wave that, you know, rises and falls and story
structure or ways for you to focus that. But without the structure and without
even knowing these open loops exist, we're just winging it and good for us for
doing that because a lot of people won't even try that. [00:30:42]But if we
want to have a sustainable thriving career, And we want to be better at this
craft. I think we're far better learning about what actually goes on in the
theory of it all to the structure, the format. How do we make things
consistently and make things consistently better every single time?
[00:30:57]Naga S: [00:30:57] Absolutely. I think that's a phenomenal note for
us to wrap up this conversation, Jay, who we've spoken about of extraction and
spoken about structure, spoken about honing a craft and spoken about. The
product or the premise marketing the right way. So can you bottom line it for
us? [00:31:15]Jay Acunzo: [00:31:15] Don't Mark it more matter more.
[00:31:17]If you just focus on that, you'll be set up for success. It's really
hard to do because it's easy to market more. It's really hard to matter more,
but I think if we focus on the wrong things, eventually we find out it's
actually a lot easier to focus on mattering to people than marketing to
people. [00:31:33]Naga S: [00:31:33] Fantastic. Can people reach out to you?
What's the best way for them to reach out, [00:31:38]to reach out Twitter? You
know, my show is three clips. That's about podcasting. And then my other show
is about creativity at work, which is unthinkable. [00:31:45]Fantastic. I'll
make sure that I include the links to your shows as well as your Twitter
handle in the show notes. [00:31:52]Jay Acunzo: [00:31:52] Thanks Naga. See
omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Leer más
For our Season 3 finale, Naga is in conversation with podcaster and content
guru - Jay Acunzo to discuss, what differentiates great creators from all
others, how to find your first 10-50 true fans? Is there a one size fits all
approach to monetization? Reach out to Jay Acunzo and Check out his content
- Member Group (Paid) -
https://jayacunzo.com/membership Podcast - 3 Clips –
https://jayacunzo.com/3-clips Podcast - Unthinkable –
https://jayacunzo.com/unthinkable-podcast Twitter –
https://twitter.com/jayacunzo Website -
https://jayacunzo.com/ Books: Break the Wheel: Question Best Practices, Hone
Your Intuition, and Do Your Best Work Reach out to Naga – Twitter -
@n1n3stuff /
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https://twitter.com/ThePassionPeop1 ) Facebook
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Transcript [00:00:00] Jay Acunzo: [00:00:00] you hear the phrase creator
economy used quite often. And I think what we're living through is a very
dangerous transition for a group of people who are trying to earn a living and
a comfortable living at that using their creativity. [00:00:15]it's also very
dangerous because with that momentum comes this, misunderstanding that to do
this, you need to be famous that you need to be an influencer. And I think
fame and influence is becoming way too closely tied to the creator economy.
[00:00:31]most importantly, this shifting mindset from essentially building on
rented land like YouTube or Twitter and moving over to a platform you actually
own like your own website and email list. [00:00:43] Naga S: [00:00:43] Hey
Jay. Hello and welcome to the passionate people podcast. And thank you for
taking the time [00:00:48] to be on the show. [00:00:49]Jay Acunzo: [00:00:49]
Thanks for having me. I really appreciate it, [00:00:50]Naga S: [00:00:50]
Jay, you have an extremely unique perspective, given your background in
content marketing, the kind of shows that you've launched and the amazing work
that you do at three clips. [00:01:01]So as, as we start. I would love to just
get like a 30,000 feet view of the content landscape from your lens and how it
looked at the start of 2020 and how COVID has changed it. [00:01:13]Jay
Acunzo: [00:01:13] Yeah. I'd love to answer. I spend very little time
thinking about the trends and what everyone else is doing, because if I did
that, I think I would probably break down. [00:01:22]I'm so focused on trying
to. Serve the audience that I'd like to serve that it's difficult to follow
the trends, but I will say that I think what we're living through, you hear
the phrase creator economy used quite often. And I think what we're living
through is a very dangerous transition for a group of people who are trying to
earn a living and a comfortable living at that using their creativity.
[00:01:46]Because on the one hand you have momentum. Which is helping more and
more people say, well, I have this craft, for me, I like to create shows. I
like to tell stories about the workplace. Somebody else might focus on a
different niche, [00:02:00] but I have this creative craft. It's never been a
better time to go and build your own audience, which by the way means moving
off of social media, using social media, but not stopping there, moving people
to your website and your email list, building an audience. [00:02:14]And
serving that audience more deeply with products and experiences that they pay
for. So it's never been a better time for that, but it's also very dangerous
because with that momentum comes this, misunderstanding that to do this, you
need to be famous that you need to be an influencer. And I think fame and
influence is becoming way too closely tied to the creator economy.
[00:02:39]So I think where I'd like to see this all go. Is to have a middle-
class develop. So middle-class in a, like a classic sense that there's a
sociologist named Dennis Gilbert. He wrote a great book called the American
class structure in an age of growing and an inequality. And Gilbert defines
middle-class as upper and lower middle-class. [00:02:59] So there's two little
segments, but they combined to make up about 45 to 50% of the total
population. And that 45 to 50% is judged based on their ability to have a
comfortable standard of living significant economic security, considerable
work autonomy, and a reliance on their own expertise to sustain themselves.
[00:03:21]So what I'd like to see is a future in the not too distant future,
by the way, where we stop trying to be super famous and have. Massive and
impressive audience reach. And we actually truly embrace the ideas like Kevin
Kelly's 1000 true fans or Seth Godin's smallest viable audience and try and
find a small number of people who react in a big way to what we do and serve
them more deeply. [00:03:49]And how do we get there? I think we need to stop
trying to be social media famous and trying to serve people with our craft. So
my fear. Is that way too many people are [00:04:00] way too excited about more
and more, more bigger, bigger, bigger, get famous in a niche or anything.
General. My hope is that we can get to a place where 45 to 50%. [00:04:08] And
that's, I think that's the bar. If you look at all, creators are 45 are about
half of them able to earn a comfortable standard of living with significant
economic security work autonomy. Using their expertise to sustain themselves.
And I think it's going to take a lot of education to get there better tools.
[00:04:27]And most importantly, this shifting mindset from essentially
building on rented land like YouTube or Twitter and moving over to a platform
you actually own like your own website and email list. [00:04:39]Naga S:
[00:04:39] Got it. Let me double click on some of the concepts that you've
spoken about here. Right? First one is Kevin Kelly's , a hundred true fans or
legions thousand true fans, or what they talk about in terms of how much money
are these folks willing to give you so that you are able to pursue your craft.
[00:04:56]Right? So in order for us to be able to get to these thousand of
these hundred people, you will at least need to reach like a 10,000 folks or
like, you know, 5,000 folks. Right. And they might eventually convert into
those smaller number of people who might end up being, who are potentially be
able to sustain us financially. [00:05:14]So if your suggestion is for folks
not to be too worried about having a broad reach, or I think what you're
really trying to say is that people should not approach like a, have a spray
and pray approach, where they say that I'm trying to get everyone is my
audience. And you're saying that you really need to have a niche.
[00:05:31]But my question is more fundamental in terms of how do you really
build that first initial audience who would be like the top of the funnel for
your paying customers later on? [00:05:41]Jay Acunzo: [00:05:41] Everything
I'm about to say is going to sound incredibly hard to do, because everybody
wants to see the final result, but I assure you, I don't know any other way to
do this other than you get incredibly lucky. [00:05:51]Lightning strikes and
suddenly lots of people know who you are. So I think those stories are mostly
myth here. Here's what I encourage people to [00:06:00] do. Stop thinking
about the funnel and think about your audience as a series of concentric
circles. So kind of like a bullseye in the middle and bigger and bigger
circles moving out from the middle. [00:06:09]When you think of it like a
funnel, I think you do think of it kind of the way you just described it, Naga
where you need to reach 10,000 people to get a hundred or a thousand to. For
example, subscribed to your newsletter. I actually think you need to just put
aside the funnel, right? Stop trying to reach a lot of people first and
convert a few people in the end of it all. [00:06:29]And start thinking about
these concentric circles, where in the middle there's this circle called super
fans. And as you radiate out from super fans, you get closer and closer to
total strangers. What most of us try to do when we market, what we do is we go
to total, strangers may be passive observers of our work, and we try to
basically try to get them to like us quickly. [00:06:52]And that makes no
sense. So whether you think in like human relationship terms or dollars and
cents. It's inefficient and ineffective to try and convince total strangers
that you're worth subscribing to or paying it's a lot easier and a lot more in
line with how humans work to go to five other human beings that, you know, you
can serve more deeply and try to build something that they like. [00:07:14]So
I think most of us are in a position where we have some people in our network,
social network or otherwise like online network or in the real world where we
can reach a very small number of people. I mean, whatever small means to you,
one, five, 15, 5,500, it depends on you and give them something that they love
and react too strongly. [00:07:34]And if you can't do that, Then that's the
problem. The problem isn't I can't reach more people, but I need to, the
problem is you haven't actually built something that people are willing to
refer others. So ostensibly, if you reach, I don't know, let's pick a number,
a hundred people to listen to your podcast episode. [00:07:52]You should be
pretty well situated to grow the show more easily because those hundred people
should be spending [00:08:00] a lot of time with you and telling all their
friends. You know, relevant friends, check out that show. I think we assume we
do that. We assume that we're actually creating something for super fans that
is worth sharing. [00:08:12]And then we say, well, it's not growing. So the
problem must be the marketing. We have to go reach 10,000 people. I don't
think that's true. I think actually, when you think about building a real-
world community, you think about meeting up for coffee or drinks with two or
three people, then two or three more next time than five or six more.
[00:08:30] The next time, then you have an event, then you have a panel. Then
you have a huge conference. Like it really is that slow build approach. It's
the same online, just because you can reach a lot of people doesn't mean that
that's actually an effective way to grow. It actually starts by making
something that one or a few people really, truly do love. [00:08:48]And tell
their friends about, and it's a dangerous assumption to make. If you're not
growing to assume you've actually done that. So the way it's sum this up is
most of the time we don't have a marketing problem, we have a product problem.
We have a service problem. We have a depth problem, not a reach problem.
[00:09:04]Naga S: [00:09:04] Got it. I also think that some of this narrative
is being carried over from like the startup world or like SAAS businesses in
general, that they refer to all of these numbers of like funnels and that
that's how they look at the world. However, the mental model that you
suggested, which is how actual communities really get built. [00:09:23] It's
the way creator should be looking at it. Like, no, it should be like, they're
talking to the first individual 5,000. How many of the people that they can
and then see how they can expand that. That's a great insight that you give
that. So then the next question I have for your Jay is that now you mentioned
that it's not about marketing, it's your product and you've, you've seen a ton
of content. [00:09:46]And there will be some things that set apart great
content from everything else that's out there. In global shows, your, you
spoke about, we don't really need another podcast, which talks to you
[00:10:00] know, famous authors and how they got there. [00:10:01] But what we
need is something. A lot more specific though. Can I just ask you to dive a
little bit deeper into what makes a great product, especially now that our
attention spans are so low and there's so many things that are finding to make
us want to look at [00:10:16]Jay Acunzo: [00:10:16] Sure. I mean, our
attention spans aren't so low because we're bingeing, Netflix shows we're
subscribing to newsletters that write essays. [00:10:23]We're reading books
were having conversations with friends and family. I read somewhere and I wish
I remember who said this. This is not my quote. We don't have we don't have
shorter attention spans. We have shorter interest spans, which means we are
going to tolerate things that are not engaging and not personal for less time.
So table stakes be relevant. Table stakes, be enjoyable. Differentiating is to
feel refreshing that you've done something different and good, not just a
random stunt, not a gimmick that feels hollow to grab attention, but something
delightful that people didn't expect in a welcome way. Differentiating is to
feel personal. [00:11:02] Like you want the reaction not to be, this is a
popular thing, but you want it to be, this is my favorite thing. And favorite
is not number one in the category. It's not different because you pulled a
stunned. Favorite means somebody's personal and preferred pick for a specific
purpose. So when you think about a product, a service content, any experience
today, the goal is to make it feel personal to the other person you're trying
to serve, or the audience we're trying to serve. [00:11:28] In other words,
the best reaction you can get is they say to you, now this is speaking to my
soul. That's what you want. Your brand, the way you position it, the story you
just publish, the way you talk about the world and see the world and lead your
community. This is speaking to my soul. It is my personal preferred pick for
this specific purpose. [00:11:47] It is my favorite. And so, you know, your
favorite restaurant may not be the top rated restaurant. Your favorite shirt
may not win any awards for fashion. My favorite basketball team is the New
York Knicks. If [00:12:00] you know anything about basketball, you know, the
New York Knicks are one of the worst basketball teams. [00:12:04] So just
really think about that objectively. One of the worst things in this set is my
favorite thing. So feeling like someone's favorite has nothing to do with how
big it is or how academically or objectively awesome it is. It has nothing to
do with the things we look at. When we look at our peers, it has everything to
do with, are you resonating deeply with somebody on a personal level?
[00:12:26]So backing all the way up to starting your build a product content,
a podcast, something else. There's really some set problems you're going to
face, which I think we fail to address because we're so focused on the tech
and the distribution and the measurement of it all. But the first challenge
you're going to face is are you saying something that matters? [00:12:46]So if
it's a podcast, for example, have you actually developed a premise for your
show? And a premise is not just the topics you explore. It's not just what you
cover. It's also how you explore them. So it's your topics plus your hook? So
there's plenty of sales podcasts in the world who talked to experts in sales,
but there is only one podcast for salespeople that explore the value of
practice in your sales job. [00:13:13]And that's a show called practice first
from a SAAS company called Lessonly. So that's a good example. Lessonly is
saying something that matters. They observed their sales audience and they're
like, look, you want to be better at sales? Well, I think you need to be
better at practicing your craft. So Lessonly sells training software for
salespeople, and they know that their customers who value practice close
faster, and they're more valuable for their businesses. [00:13:38]Well,
they're also then saying to the world, we need to elevate the role of
practice. So we're not going to just interview a bunch of sales executives on
this show on practice. First, we're going to learn how world-class practices
do that to then try to translate it to our world in sales. So they'll talk to
Olympians, they'll talk to Somalis. [00:13:58]They will talk to coaches.
[00:14:00] And to me that is. That's IP that's intellectual property. That is
defensible because when you say that to the world, like, actually this is
something that matters to us and to the community, someone is saying, man,
that is speaking to my soul. I'm with you, I'm on the journey to understand
practice and how to practice better as a sales individual. [00:14:20]And
someone else is saying, yes, I'm in sales, but I don't believe that practice
is that important. Well, that's fine. This is not a show for you. That's okay.
Also, if you, if you tried our product, you would dislike our product too. So
it's that level of specificity and saying something that truly matters of
combining your topics. [00:14:38] In other words, what you explore with your
hook, that unique angle into the topics, your point of view, your quest, that
you're bringing people on. Those are the things that combined to say something
that matters. And those are the starting points for building in your words, a
great product. [00:14:53]Naga S: [00:14:53] So now we've spoken about the
number of people that you need for your, like a minimum viable audience you've
spoken about. How do you make a great product once content creator has
achieved both of these things? What do you think is the next best way to
achieve? Monetization. And what I mean by monetization is that the audience
typically is expecting to either be entertained or to learn something new or
to be taken on a journey or be disconnected from reality, so to speak because
they just want to relax and unwind when, when they're consuming content apart
from these three broad value teams, what are some of the other Aspects that
creators can keep in mind so that they can move towards monetization in a
quicker and more thoughtful manner. [00:15:43]Jay Acunzo: [00:15:43] I can't
answer that question because it's too general. Because there's a million,
everything at our disposal today, our tools. Right. So like, could you do a
course? Sure. Could you run ads? Sure. Could you sell a book? Absolutely. You
know, could you create a membership group? Absolutely. These are all tools.
[00:15:58]And so [00:16:00] rather than have me give a general answer, I would
encourage people to go and talk to their audience and understand what is.
Still bugging them. What problem is left under addressed or what thing is
under explored that they'd like to understand better? So we have all these
tools at our disposal and I'm kind of struck by today. [00:16:20] We're all
looking for that, answer, that silver bullet, you know, the savior tactic, you
should do this. Well that's general advice and I don't know the variables of
your specific situation. So just ignore what I say and go talk to your
audience. You know, a good example of this is, this podcast called three
clips, which is where podcasts join us and take us inside their best work.
[00:16:41]And we do so by playing three different clips and breaking them down
together. So I talked to the audience of three clips all the time on social
media. I do one-on-one video calls through my newsletter. And one of the
things I've recognized is this audience desperately wants to create really
awesome shows, but there's this disassociation. [00:17:02] They feel between
their heroes and them, whether they admire great podcasts, but they're like,
Oh, I could never do anything that big. Well, it's like, okay. But if you're
like, listen to the show, these people aren't describing anything big or
stunt, like they're describing these tiny choices they made all the time that
combined to making a great show. [00:17:20]So you can put process to that.
Well, what is the process I was, you know, okay, I'll go write some essays
about what I'm learning from the show. I'll send some tweets, I'll send some
newsletter, additions, all about the things I'm learning and thinking about as
a result of this show. And now I'm looking for, you know, am I getting a
strong reaction from the audience? [00:17:38]Okay, the answer is yes. Great.
Well, how do I then go a level deeper with these ideas? Let me take one
specific thing. And in this case, I took the premise because that is such an
important and overlooked thing. How do you develop a premise for your podcast?
That's what prompts subscription. That's what drives the sharing of your show?
[00:17:55] It's what helps you make choices inside your show? The premise
development is [00:18:00] crucial, but most people don't think of the premise.
They think of growth. They think of growing the show. How do I know that?
Because I talked to these people and when I bring up premise development, it's
like their eyes glaze over and they have no idea what I'm talking about.
[00:18:12] Then I explain it, you know, then I explain it, then they get it.
So when I talk about growth, they lean in, when I talk about premise
development, they lean back. So I have to put the two together. So you want to
grow your show. Great. What makes a growable show? Well, it starts with the
premise. So then I developed a course. [00:18:29]To help people grow their
shows by developing a better premise called it Growable shows. So all those
decisions from the content I'm creating, you know, that's away from the show
to pressure test my ideas to the name itself growable shows because I could
have called it premise development. It all comes from me talking to the
audience. [00:18:47] So as a creator today, it can be overwhelming because you
have myriad tools and tons of different products that you could create for
your audience. There's no way you can pick that out. In theory, you have to
just pursue endless curiosity and pursue little threads that your audience
surfaces to you. And for me, the best way to do that is actually not to create
podcast episodes it's to write is to use writing as a way to explore.
[00:19:11]I might learn something through the podcast, but then I'm like,
great. I'm going to write a ton about this stuff. I'll write stuff on Twitter.
I'll write stuff in my blog. I'll write stuff on my newsletter. I'll write and
write and write until I understand these things better. And have process and
have technique I can teach. [00:19:25] And I'm also getting a feedback loop
for my audience to understand if they're, if they're picking up what I'm
putting down. So I know that's a long answer, but I don't think there is a
simple answer. I think it is go talk to your audience, but be process-driven
about it. [00:19:36]Naga S: [00:19:36] Yup. I love the fact that you're,
you're not only engaging with your audience and in one form. [00:19:42] Right?
And, and even as part of the clips, you also have like specific episodes that
are just dedicated to input your conversation with the listeners and the kind
of stuff that you hear back from them. [00:19:52]Jay Acunzo: [00:19:52] That's
another great example of talking to the audience that I sort of discovered by
accident. It's like I do. [00:19:58]A listener mailbag episode, [00:20:00]
once in awhile, where mostly on Twitter, I ask if people have questions about
creating shows and we'll do five to seven questions in an episode that I'll
answer. So we don't have a guest. It's not the usual production. It's just Q
and a, and I'm answering questions I got on Twitter. [00:20:14]And what I
realized is everybody's questions, or a lot of questions tend to focus on
things that they think they need to know. But I want to show them actually,
what you really need to know is over here. And I can't just say that I have to
start with the problems that they think they have and walk them every step of
the way to the problem that I know they have. [00:20:36]Which is something I
learned as a public speaker, because when you give a keynote speech, unlike a
breakout speech or talk, you're giving like a big idea how to think talk. And
so the keynote, you can't just get up there and be like, everybody's doing it
wrong. Think about it this way. Instead you have to say, so we all want to get
over there. [00:20:54]Right. And here's how we're going about it today. Okay.
We're in agreement. Okay. Well, here's the problems with the status quo with
our current approach. And people go, huh? Hadn't thought about it or, Oh my
goodness. Yep. You get me. Those are the problems I deal with all the time.
And then you can say, okay, well consider this different thing here.
[00:21:13] Let me give you a story that shows what it looks like. Let me break
it down into a framework that we can use with some lessons and some examples,
you know, and let's go deeper if you want away from the speech. Let's talk
after subscribe to my newsletter, take a course, et cetera. So this idea of
being a keynote speaker kind of taught me that our jobs as creators is not the
pander to existing market demand. It's actually to look at what people think
they need and actually tell them what they really need. You know, the, the
classic idea of Henry Ford talking about his customers. Like if I asked my
customers what they wanted, they would've said faster horses. [00:21:46]So
actually we're all in the business of understanding the pain, understanding
the problems, understanding what is broken about the status quo and people's
current processes. But then we can't just propose a radically new and
different solution or category. We have to [00:22:00] start with where they're
at and move them every step of the way towards something better. [00:22:03]And
for my money, one of the best ways to do that today is to start a podcast. So
that's why I love it because a podcast is like a journey between the status
quo or your current understanding. And something better in the distance. So it
kind of mirrors a keynote speech stretched out over a much longer period of
time, but either way as a creative person, you are in the business of making
change and helping people do something better or differently. [00:22:26] Not
just saying everybody's asking for this. So I'll write a bunch of stuff that
addresses that you're in the business of change. [00:22:32]Naga S: [00:22:32]
You spoke about how every creator's journey to monetization. Is different. And
you also said that, , that there are different things that they might not know
that they want, but it's up to us to find out what they really need and help
them bridge the gap. [00:22:47]One of the ways to bridge the gap also is to
see what someone else is doing in your blog posts. You've spoken about
extraction. It's spoken about how do you observe and document like. The
underlying framework of a particular episode. I think I wrote about it in
reference to a TV show. [00:23:04]How can somebody apply that in terms of
borrowing, so to speak best practices from other creators so that they're able
to apply it for their content? [00:23:15] Jay Acunzo: [00:23:15] It's a great
question. I rejected the idea early in my life that creativity. And great
creative projects have a format, have a structure, have a repeatable process.
[00:23:25]But if you look at everything from scientific studies about
creativity, to just real-world examples and advice from people, constraints
actually yield better creativity. I think we, we believe the opposite. We
believe we want creative freedom, but I think that's only because we've had
bad constraints or constraints we disagree with or didn't know were there.
[00:23:44] With teammates, employers, ourselves, but putting positive or
proactive constraints on your work actually breeds better creativity. And one
amazing type of constraint to put on your work is the format of whatever it is
you're creating. So for me, those are [00:24:00] shows. So I have a, I have
two podcasts. I've mentioned three clips. [00:24:03]The other one I have is a
show called unthinkable, which three clips has kind of a segmented interview
on thinkable as a narrative style show. So to heavier production, lots of
story and voiceover and music and sound design, and the audience gets one end
to end episode. Every time it feels like one coherent story. [00:24:20]But
what I know is happening underneath an episode, which then makes me better to
create it is I know we have six or seven blocks of content with the same
purpose. A block is for this B block is for that. And they have different
runtimes. And we have to fill those blocks with content. So we're going to go
and research. [00:24:36] We're going to go interview. We're going to craft it
and in editing. And I got that idea from TV because in TV you have both
visible and invisible what they call rundowns. So visible rundown is like a
news program often has that you see the ticker of what subjects they're
covering and when a sit-com or a story style show, anything where you don't
know the format, it's not told to you. [00:25:00] That's an invisible rundown.
And so my favorite storyteller is Anthony Bordain and his show parts unknown
on CNN before, you know, he tragically died and I took a notebook early in my
time, creating unthinkable. And I sat down with that show and I just tried to
document what is it that makes his show so magical? [00:25:18] Like what's the
format, even if him and his production team didn't have it in their heads.
There's something going on in repeatable fashion here. And if I could extract
the rundown. I can modify it and use it for my show. So I'm not trying to
imitate Bordain. I'm just trying to have a flow that feels similar to his.
[00:25:36]So my voice is different, but the structure is the same. And you can
do that with anything you admire take a notebook, see if you can figure out
what your favorite creators are doing underneath their content. What's the
structure of a given story of your favorite newsletter or book. You know, how
do they actually format that video that you love? [00:25:54]And chances are,
you can come up with something that approximates their plan, or maybe they
didn't have a plan, but you have [00:26:00] a structure anyway. So I call that
exercise and extraction and it can really radically transform your creativity.
You know, first of all, it gives you a repeatable process. So you don't burn
out every time. [00:26:11] Like every episode of unthinkable early on for me,
felt like I was just kind of proceeding on gut feel alone and I would burn out
a lot. Well, now you have a repeatable process. I know what I need to get in
my research in my interviews with people in post, I have a plan. The second
thing that happens is the audience gets a better final result because you have
a plan to get them to the end of the thing, you know, in my case, in episode.
[00:26:33]So I have like a structure to it. Not just because it's fun or
sounds right, but because lineup, all these sections, you have one great
coherent experience that people don't want to leave. So it benefits your
production, it benefits your audience sticking around, and it also benefits
the longevity or show because you can look at that rundown and re-invent with
purpose. [00:26:52]Instead of being like, I have all these ideas for new types
of episodes or additions. If my newsletter or my blog, you can say, well, this
is the structure, you know, in my case of an episode, and every time we hit B
block, it seems to fall apart. So let me change it. Or actually, I think we
could try to experiment with a playful type of segment at the end, or maybe
that becomes a mini series or a whole new show after we do it five or six
times inside an existing episode. [00:27:17]So you get to reinvent with
purpose. So I think having structure is transformative, but we fight it too
much as creative people. And I think that's a huge missed opportunity.
[00:27:25]Naga S: [00:27:25] The first time that I really, , had my brush with
structure was when I was studying to get into business school. And I was
reading about , reading comprehension, how do you break down a passage? It
was just a revelation for me to realize that even in my favorite Netflix show,
there is a specific story arc. [00:27:42]The protagonist is going through
certain things and it always ends. With a clincher and that sort of keeps you
coming back for more and more and more. And this, like you said, like let's
structure everywhere, but it's just that we're not really thinking about it or
looking for it or looking for inspiration from those places. [00:27:58]Jay
Acunzo: [00:27:58] Yeah. Like there's, there [00:28:00] are some famous story
structures, you know Joseph Campbell's hero's journey is a big one. There's a
modified version of that that's been used in pop culture and entertainment
from. Dan Harmon, who's the showrunner behind shows like community and Rick
and Morty. He uses something called the story circle. [00:28:15] You can just
pull up Google images and search for hero's journey or Dan Harmon story
circle. And you'll find that it just makes sense, like these visuals explain
story. I mean, even tiny little heuristics, like there's, there's a technique
called the open loop. So here's an example of an open loop. So Naga this
morning I went downstairs to my kitchen and my notebook was sitting on the
counter and I read the first page of my notebook, which had five words that
inspired me. [00:28:43] And I read them every morning. Okay. Nothing happened
in that story like this, literally a story about nothing. I went to the
kitchen, I looked at my notebook. I read five words that inspire me, but the
question on your mind immediately, Is [00:28:55] Naga S: [00:28:55] what are
those five words? [00:28:56] Jay Acunzo: [00:28:56] Exactly. And so you're
like that story is about nothing, but please continue. [00:29:01]And so open
loops are just, you start a sequence of events and you end them later, you
open questions or raise intrigue and you resolve them later. Open loops, even
the word, but is a form of open loops. And that's what I thought. But then
Naga called me. Who's Naga. Why he call you? How did it change your perception
of what you thought the word, but is like a form of a tiny little open loop.
[00:29:25] It's a storytelling device. Open loops can span years, like game of
Thrones who will sit on the throne. That's an open loop that the name itself
opened for the audience. It raised intrigue. Before you even saw the show. If
you just heard the name during the promotion for season one, now there's
already an open loop and that lasted 10 years. [00:29:43]So big and small, you
have this technique called the open loop and we don't know how to wield it as
creators. So either we don't use intrigue or don't create questions. And so
our experiences are flat or we use it in a very. Abusive way. We, you know, we
re we [00:30:00] abused the responsibility inherent and being a communicator.
[00:30:03] And we do things like clickbait headlines, which is like a crude
form of an open loop. And I think if you learn how to tactfully use tension,
that's what creates great stories. And that is where these story structures
come in, because it's like, okay, what details happened before the tension?
Where do I introduce the tension? [00:30:21] Where do I relieve the tension?
And sometimes it's as simple as one, two, three, sometimes it's a little bit
more nuanced and like a wave that, you know, rises and falls and story
structure or ways for you to focus that. But without the structure and without
even knowing these open loops exist, we're just winging it and good for us for
doing that because a lot of people won't even try that. [00:30:42]But if we
want to have a sustainable thriving career, And we want to be better at this
craft. I think we're far better learning about what actually goes on in the
theory of it all to the structure, the format. How do we make things
consistently and make things consistently better every single time?
[00:30:57]Naga S: [00:30:57] Absolutely. I think that's a phenomenal note for
us to wrap up this conversation, Jay, who we've spoken about of extraction and
spoken about structure, spoken about honing a craft and spoken about. The
product or the premise marketing the right way. So can you bottom line it for
us? [00:31:15]Jay Acunzo: [00:31:15] Don't Mark it more matter more.
[00:31:17]If you just focus on that, you'll be set up for success. It's really
hard to do because it's easy to market more. It's really hard to matter more,
but I think if we focus on the wrong things, eventually we find out it's
actually a lot easier to focus on mattering to people than marketing to
people. [00:31:33]Naga S: [00:31:33] Fantastic. Can people reach out to you?
What's the best way for them to reach out, [00:31:38]to reach out Twitter? You
know, my show is three clips. That's about podcasting. And then my other show
is about creativity at work, which is unthinkable. [00:31:45]Fantastic. I'll
make sure that I include the links to your shows as well as your Twitter
handle in the show notes. [00:31:52]Jay Acunzo: [00:31:52] Thanks Naga. See
omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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